What's R & R ?

[sliding-tom]

Another can of worms!!!
I have been thinking abut putting this up for discussion for a long time and BVance's post in the R & R HOF thread about the induction of a certain "Madonna" has encouraged me to start this thread. So here goes and this could turn into an interesting and maybe heated discussion or it might die after only a couple of posts. I'm curious.

Statement: Rock 'N' Roll is not a definite musical style or genre. All the music that was claimed to be an entirely new style called Rock ' n' Roll in the early to mid-50s had been there before and most of it for a long time.
Elvis (and nobody else for that matter) didn't invent R & R . :eek:
One of the longest living cliches that doesn't get truer just by mere repition is that R & R originated when white musicians melted black blues and white country in the 50s. BS: black and white musicians in the south have been listening to and learning from and being influenced by each other since day one. Examples?:
The Mississippi Sheiks sound more like a country string band than a blues band. There's a whole sub-genre of blues in early country (still called hillbilly then) - e.g. Frank Hutchison, Cliff Carlisle, also Jimmy Rodgers. Jimmy Davis (of You Are My Sunshine fame) worked with black slide guitarists in the studio in the 20s. Howling Wolf developed his signature howling by trying to imitate Jimmie Rodgers as a kid. Bob Wills and The Texas Playboys. The list could go on.
I remember an interview with Carl Perkins where he said something like: "We ( him and his brother) didn't know what all the fuss was about this new style called Rock and Roll - we had been playing this type of music since the 40s."
There's lots of very very different types of music that have been labeled as Rock 'n' Roll: DooWop, R & B (now what's that?), jump blues, country etc.
Listen to Muddy Waters' 1948 recording of "Can't Be Satisfied" and imagine a voice not so deeply rooted in black Delta Blues and you have pure Rockabilly ( in 1948 and in 1941 when he recorded the same tune sans bass for the LOC).
Rock 'n' Roll in the 50s was a label put onto already existing music to market and sell it to a young audience.
Your turn, Gentlemen!

[B Vance]

Great topic for discussion Tom and I'm glad that my post in the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame thread prompted you to put this out there.

Please understand that the following is nothing more than my opinion...

1) To me, Rock N Roll isn't a set formula, or set of rules. It's more of an idea, in the absense of rules.

2) It's a counter-cultural response to popular music ideologies. Rock N Roll is both evolutionary and revolutionary. Don't get me wrong, evolution doesn't necessarily mean progress in the right direction. In my opinion there have been plenty counter-cultural musical movements that have negatively impacted the quality of their product. Rock N Roll is revolutionary in that it spurs a response. The response doesn't have to be active, in fact, in many cases it's the exact opposite - apathy.

3) Rock is best defined in hindsight. Sometimes the only way to accurately identify instances of Rock N Roll is after it's already happened. It's not always identifyable in real-time.

Therefore, in essence, Rock N Roll's absence of definition is its true definition.

Any such attenpt by the industry to classify a product then as Rock, would, by this definition, strip it of its "Rockness." Like I mentioned in my post in the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame thread, there are far too many bands to name who are characterized as "Rock" who actually couldn't be further from it. I'm not one for placing music into categorical boxes for the sake of organizing CDs in music stores, but the category of Pop/Rock has always baffled me.

[sliding-tom]

Very valid and meaningful thoughts, Brian - thanks! :)

[tonefinger]

It's a very subjective thing, the term" rock and roll" is an ever evolving way of categorizing music that doesn't fit any other genre. What I consider "Rock" is a completely different thing than the next guys "Rock", which is the beauty of it, in my opinion. It is the same thing with "Blues". Tom, I know from reading your past posts that you are very passionate about what is considered "Blues" these days, and to me it is the same argument, the lines are very blurred and many kinds of music are considered "Blues", and really there is no right or wrong, to me music is music, I don't care what anybody else calls it. All that really matters is what you like and not how someone else categorizes it.
Good post by the way, interesting subject.

[tonefinger]

Come on, only three of us has an opinion on this subject?

[PeeWee]

Well, I'll try and weigh in on this. Personally, I feel that the idiom known as Rock & Roll died some time ago. What ever happened to the "Roll" aspect any way?? I think the "Roll" died when the jazz element in the rhythm section was replaced by a more basic quarter note structure. If you're wondering what I'm referring to, just dig out a Chuck Berry recording from the Chess days and give a listen to Fred Below's drum work. There's a swing element there that is taken directly from Jazz with the dotted eights on the cymbals played against a 4/4 feel. I wish that the "Roll" would come back :(

Generally what I consider to be Rock music is a definitive line up consisting of 1 or 2 electric guitars, bass & drums. Additives would be keys and/or horns. To me, it doesn't include sampled music, drums machines or any other computerized device. Just plain ol' balls out energy, volume and attitude. The Punk bands of the '70s made an attempt at bringing Rock & Roll back from a near death by revolting against the status quo that was prevelent in the music industry at that time. Probably the closest it came to resembling the early days, IMHO.

Then, the dreck of the '80s hit with the likes of all the Euro synth groups featuring *vocalists* who sounded either whiny or couldn't carry a tune in a bucket with two handles. A very dark period in the annuls of Rock History to be sure. I think that this was really when Pop and Rock were sort of melded together into one genre and one of the reasons that there are now so many variations of the style.

However, I believe that the biggest factor is just what the major lables define the genre as and just how much they stand to profit by attaching a lable to a specific form. A prime example would be the current state of Country music, which is basically nothing more than Southern Rock or Pop music with a twang. Trad. Country was dying and to inject new life into the form, some genius decided it would be profitable to go a little more toward mainstream tastes. The result was a broader appeal and a younger fan base. I guess that as Rock ages itself, the same theories are applied in order to promote record sales and to keep the fan base within a certain demographic. So in that context, the genre will continue to evolve and interface with other forms of mainstream music. Just my take anyway......

[sliding-tom]

Very very good and insightful, PeeWee! I think I agree in every respect.

[tonefinger]

"A very dark period in the annals of Rock history" indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself. Your view on the current state of country music is spot on, it has been watered down and doesn't remotely resemble what it used to. Really, all genres have been diluted and the lines are all crossed so there is very little in the way of "pure" rock or country or whatever you chose to listen to.
I remember going to a show a few years back to see the Kentucky Headhunters, supposedly a country band, and witnessed a pretty good rock concert, which was cool- it was entertaining, but it wasn't a country show. I don't think there is a clear separation between the genres anymore, which might not be such a bad thing, you just might have to look a little harder to find something new that you might like.

[B Vance]

Generally what I consider to be Rock music is a definitive line up consisting of 1 or 2 electric guitars, bass & drums. Additives would be keys and/or horns. To me, it doesn't include sampled music, drums machines or any other computerized device. Just plain ol' balls out energy, volume and attitude.

Hey PeeWee. Interesting comments and great points. I agree with you that things have changed significantly and the loss of the jazz influence has been detrimental. I have come to appreciate the offerings of guys like Ginger Baker whose playing was busting with jazz.

I would, however distance myself from your classification of rock music as consisting of what is quoted above. To me that really puts the music in a box and limits the extent of expression.

Just curious, if what you included in your post is your definition, how would you describe bands like The Derek Trucks Band or the Allman Brothers who make substantial use of organs (which is not in your list of instruments)?

[PeeWee]

B,

I do mention "keys" which would include piano, organ or in the case of bands like Genesis or ELP, an early version of the synth in addition to the traditional keyboard instruments.

With that said, I would classify the Allmans as a Blues based Rock band and DTB as a jam band with Blues/Rock leanings. Having shared a bill with DTB in2002 that was how they presented themselves at that time.

[B Vance]

B,

I do mention "keys" which would include piano, organ or in the case of bands like Genesis or ELP, an early version of the synth in addition to the traditional keyboard instruments.

With that said, I would classify the Allmans as a Blues based Rock band and DTB as a jam band with Blues/Rock leanings. Having shared a bill with DTB in2002 that was how they presented themselves at that time.

PeeWee,

Sorry I missed that...I should have read over your post a bit closer...

[PeeWee]

Ain't nothing but a thing, B! You're just keeping me on my toes, man! :D

[MelvinDale]

I've been struggling with this since it was first posted and I've read everyones responses and all make perfect sense - so I have a hard time trying to define what I see as a moving target.

Rock and or Rock & Roll has, as all music will, mutated over time - it was an amalgamation of sorts when it started and has continued down that hill without gathering moss.

My original thought was Rock is three chords and an attitude, then I thought about the minor 6th . . .When I was extremely young I was very into almost every thing that was out there. Growing up in Detroit didn't hurt, but really radio was far different, and I can't say that any of it defines R&R. I guess we just need to catigorize everything

I'll keep thinking about this and maybe . . . maybe come up with something, but I doubt it.
tonefinger - I guess yours is the ultimate truth - one mans Rock is another mans Roll

What were the first records you purchased with your own money?
Where they Rock? I thought so, but in hindsight I'd say no.

[MelvinDale]

Since I threw that out there . . . .my first three records I bought are as follows (remember please I'm old and at the time I was very young).

Rawhide - I broke it on the way home while riding my bike. (don't remember who did it?)
Hey Wild One - Bobby Rydel (Philly?)
It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty

So two were country crossovers and one was just schmoltz.
None of these are Rock and Roll that's for sure. But I changed stripes as well over time.

[sliding-tom]

What were the first records you purchased with your own money?

First single:
Casey Jones & The Governors - Jack The Ripper b/w It's Been A Long Time, Baby (maybe the first slow 12 bar blues I've ever heard and the first time I ever heard a slide guitar - although I didn't know what it was - that came a long long time later)
Second Single:
The Kinks - All Day And All Of The Night b/w Where Have All The Good Times Gone
First album (IIRC):
Ten Years After - Ssssshhhh! I think that was the one that put me on the path to seeking out the artists that were hidden behind those colourful names like Big Joe Williams and Sonny Boy Williamson.

[PeeWee]

My first LP purchase with my own money was ZZ Top's Tres Hombres. The first time I heard La Grange I was knocked out; that boogie riff was what got me looking into the Blues. Like Dr. Ross said, "I got the boogie disease"! IIRC, I was maybe 11 years old.

[sliding-tom]

Not too bad of a choice, PeeWee! Still dig that album. Oh, I forgot - I was about ten when I bought my first single. :D

[MelvinDale]

I'm having a hard time trying to remember my first album - it was probably the Beatles, followed by the Doors, but the one that truly woke me up to the power of music was Moby Grape and when their second album came out I was hugely dissapointed except for two numbers a blues based boogie - Can't Be so Bad and Millers Blues.

ZZ - I'm just a huge fan of all three of them - being a former bass player I dig the way Dusty and Frank hold it together . . . . but Billy's simplistic, note perfect playing is brilliant!
But it took me until 5 years ago to get into them - late bloomer.

Casey Jones and the Governors - Were they out Germany or England? Can't say I've ever heard of them.

Kinks first album was great also and when Chrissy Hinde covered 'Gotta Stop Crying' I was blown away. Ray is a great writer and Dave was/is truly unique.

So what else sent yo on your musical voyage?
For me it was moving to a new area and suddenly being thrust into the world of Bar Mitzha's where everyone of them had a band. To me Larry the bass player was the epitome of cool froma band that backed up a local TV star called Morgus - he showed old Sci-fi movies on Saturday. Got a St. George Bass and and a Magnatone Starlight 441 amp - which I still use now and again. . . . and I was cookin'
For the first half a year I tuned my bass to to D-G-B-E - who knew?

[tonefinger]

My first three were Kiss alive( I know there is going to be some snickers about that, but I loved that album), Rory Gallagher's PhotoFinish album, I didn't even know who he was at the time- I just thought he looked cool on the album cover-I still listen to this, he is one of my alltime favorites- something about the rawness of his playing, and finally Tommy Bolins Private Eyes, which is still one of my favorites. Tommy Bolin is a very underrated guitarist. I feel that I was pretty lucky in discovering Gallagher and Tommy Bolin at such a young age, they became two of my guitar influences.
There was so much good music back then, all of my favorite records were from that era.

[sliding-tom]

C.J. & The Governors were a band from the U.K. in the mid sixties, pretty popular for some time here in Europe but gone soon like a lot of others. Their biggest hit was a cover of Huey "Piano" Smith's tune "Don't You Just Know It", renamed "Don't HaHa". I still dig The Kinks not only for their music but also for Ray Davis' song lyrics which were pretty unsusual for the time in the way he made to-the-point social comments.

[B Vance]

The first "Rock" album I purchased with my own money was Metallica - "Metallica" (The Black Album) in 1990, I was 8.

The first album that I remember puchasing with my own money was Kid N Play - "2 Hype" in 1988, I was 6.

The first album that I ever requested and got was Michael Jackson - "Thriller", I think I was probably three at the time so that would put it in 1985 or so.

[tonefinger]

I will say that the first Zeppelin record I bought changed everything for me.

[brakeonthroo]

I don't like labeling music, but whenever I hear a nice electric guitar and a drum p[performance, I assume R&R. I know people who unintentionally play rock and when you ask them they call pop-rock.

[sliding-tom]

I don't like labeling music

That was pretty much why I started this thread: the label "Rock'nRoll" has been tagged on a variety of different musical styles, most of them (to be politically correct) afro-american and there's no one definition of the term although it's still being used and with different meanings in different parts of the world. In Germany and I think most of Europe, R'N'R is fast 12 bar shuffle/boogie.

[beerts]

okay, I must weigh in here...
my first album was the Runaways (best chick band ever!)
and while I find R&R hard to define, I think that it's basically what I play. we have a lot of different things going on in our music and I'm sure some people would be reluctant to categorize some of it as rock, but that would also describe a lot of my favorite albums. often a single song wouldn't fall into the rock category while maybe the album as a whole would. hmmmm...
what about the stuff they called alternative? where does that fall in the scheme of things?